Green Hosting

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by onelove, May 13, 2008.

  1. onelove

    onelove New Member

    You have to admit, it's starting to grow exponentially. More and more "Green Hosting" companies are springing up all over the place as corporations and consumers are becoming more conscious of their mark on our planets resources.

    My feeling from hosting with KH for over 2 years is that this organisation does have what it takes to make it in this almost brand new and quickly growing market sector.

    I would happily pay 5-15% more if I knew that our servers were housed in a solar powered data centre that uses the latest low power consumption setup.

    Here is an interesting article about Sun's latest initiative which they predict will pay itself off within 3 years:

    Interesting to note that "Green Hosting" actually works out cheaper in the long run.

    Here's an article on how green data centres save money:

    It's a market worthy of note.
  2. Maish

    Maish New Member

    Forgive me for butting in here and ranting, but green hosting could be solar paneled, super-duper, running on water, with a little help from the Lord above - whatever does it for you.

    Me personally, I prefer to put my trust in a steady power supply, (or two or three), redundant disk arrays, backup generator - which does not really run on environmentally friendly fuel and good cooling.

    Green hosting is not mainly for the environment, and it is a shame that people are believing that. It is to save datacenters and their owners money.

    Believe me the way that we will all save money it to virtualize the servers and pack more OS's on each and every server. There are several products that provide this option, XEN, Virtuosso, VMWare just to name a few..

    So the green hosting - is a guilt trip, aimed at all of us that think that we are killing our planet.

    The only ones at the moment that benefit from this intiative are those that are making more money.....:eek:
  3. khiltd

    khiltd New Member

    I just read this on the internet so it must be true.
  4. Bryan

    Bryan Very Happy KH VPS User

    To be perfectly honest, I've never heard of "green hosting" until now. I had no idea that data centers and hosting companies were actually going out of their way to be "green." The whole thing sounds pretty ridiculous to me though. Ah well. :rolleyes:
  5. Maish

    Maish New Member

    Now that is a good one, becuase everything on the internet is true!!! :)
  6. rezag

    rezag New Member

    The flaw in this logic is the following:
    All decent sized and well managed datacenters are making money any way otherwise they wouldn't be around. Yes its possible that they can make more profits by using different strategies and if being environmentally friendly actually makes them more money then this is something to be celebrated considering all the propaganda about the viability of being green.
    If they don't pass on any savings and keep it to themselves thats doesn't disprove the notion that its good to go green if possible.

    What you are saying would only be true if you could prove that using environmentally options would lower performance, uptimes, etc. There is no evidence solar and wind power are less reliable, they may be more expensive but thats not what you are claiming when you say they are making more profits.
  7. khiltd

    khiltd New Member

    Same goes for talk radio; you can never go wrong parroting some unsubstantiated nonsense you overheard on the Sirius. Sure, some people might come up with "facts" and "figures" which seem to "prove" you "wrong" at first glance, but those people are just missing out on the "big picture" thanks to the brainwashing they've received from the liberal media.
  8. KH-Paul

    KH-Paul CTO Staff Member

    I won't really participate in this specific discussion but for people who can't live without being "green" I would just say that for quite long time already we pay premium prices for HE (Highly Efficient / low-power) type of CPUs that consume about twice less power than non-HE CPUs. We, as a company, don't really benefit from this as we continue to pay same prices for power / cooling as in case of cabinets/racks with standard (non-HE) machines while we do invest money money into HE servers compared to non-HE ones.
  9. LeMarque

    LeMarque Member

    Hope this is OK

    Otherwise delete it.

    I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there's some truth out there like mercury in fish, coal fired generating plants... etc.
  10. Maish

    Maish New Member

    Wow, i had to read that more than once to understand it, but let me give it a shot.

    I agree that perhaps other "green" sources of energy could be just as good/reliable then our conventional sources we use today.

    What I was meaning to say was, that if as a hosting company (and even more so a datacenter) the best and biggest way to save the money is not by getting your power from a potato:)D)/wind/water . They way that a datacenter will save money is by reducing cooling costs, reducing floor space, reducing power costs. How is that done? by packing more and more Virtual Machines into one physical server. Data out there (trust me I read it on the internet .... :) ) says that virtualizing your hardware can get you a ratio of at least 1:10 (physical:virtual) and in the most extreme cases even 1:30 (but that us really pushing it). In my position as a Infrastructure manager in the firm I work at, we are sitting at something 1:20.

    The Virtualization Platforms or getting better by the day. VPS market is growing more and more.

    2 more things.

    True, but these CPU's out perform a simple Celeron chip by far any day, so of course they cost more. And yes there are so many more elements inthe equation that have to be taken into account before you will save from a HE chip. And they are not that much more expensive any more. So keep them coming.

    And thing number 2...

    Sorry for the rant....
  11. khiltd

    khiltd New Member

    So how about you show us a ledger which demonstrates increasing profits that are directly attributable to any business' investment in any renewable energy source? Bonus points may be awarded if you can get through an entire sentence without using the word "virtual."

    I'm sure there are plenty of crooked solar panel hucksters out there fleecing stupid yuppies blind, but your assertion that any business which chooses to strive for carbon neutrality is doing so only because it somehow saves or earns them money is absolutely baseless. If you don't care about pollution that's entirely your business, but you should probably go shop around for a field of turbines before you start shooting your mouth off about profits.
  12. LeMarque

    LeMarque Member

    You wouldn't happen to be a retired attorney from Exxon, would you?
  13. magic

    magic New Member

    I was in a home improvement store the other day and was looking at gardening stuff. In the area where they had the bags of top soil there was a big display where it advertised New! ORGANIC! top soil! Now bear in mind that top soil is not much more than some dirt and cow crap for fertilizer mixed in a plastic bag. The only real difference was the fancy packaging and slogans, and of course, the slightly higher price.

    Now certainly, it's a good idea to reduce air pollution as much as possible and part of that involves reducing energy usage. Something you need to keep in mind though is that market conditions are already forcing this to happen; as energy prices increase, the impetus will be on energy users to conserve to keep their energy expenses at the same level.

    Putting up solar panels is more about a datacenter being energy self-sufficient than it being "green." No more relying on the power company is nice, but when you think about it, with the amount of electric hardware, redundancy, generators, and so on in a datacenter, there are already in a state where they do not have to rely on the power company (to a certain extent, so long as they can keep the diesel generators running during a crisis). Having solar panels then is another layer of redundancy, meaning that hopefully you will be able to run the generators less (at night comes to mind) should the flow of electricity be interrupted.

    Dressing this up as a "green" effort is like the organic top soil bag, it's pretty silly. With the amount of energy usage that datacenters use, they are natural energy hogs. Plus you have to think of all the heat exhaust from the racks themselves. Perhaps if that could be reused somehow then you could make an environmental argument about it. And don't forget the energy used to lay the fiberoptic lines to the center, all the other nodes in the network, technicians driving around, and so on.
  14. Maish

    Maish New Member

    Now... Finally someone who understands me....

    Oh, ya. Was it that obvious that I am enjoying Virtualized systems that much??:confused::confused:
  15. onelove

    onelove New Member

    "Green" Hosting includes low energy consumption equipment (like the HE CPU's KH currently use), high level of virtualisation, alternate efficient cooling sources, latest spec hardware, and efficient use of all energy consumed. Alternate power sources are used to charge up battery banks which then power the grid. In the case of power shortages, there are always top of the range backup generators that are capable of powering the datacentre for as long as there is fuel available. Some centres like ones run by Fujitsu are using low pollution fuel cell backup generators. This is just a brief idea of the model behind "green" data centers. Better technology + less physical space + efficient energy usage + alternate power supply etc.

    I read recently about a data centre in Canada that uses the excess heat generated to heat the community swimming pool close by and that during winter they pump in cold air from outside to cool the place. Innovative yes?

    Here is a few facts from this ( article about Sun's new energy efficient data centre, Sun will be reducing power consumption by 61%. They will be saving $9.3 Million on construction costs. The number of servers were decreased from 2,177 to 1,240 with a 456% increase in computing power.

    Business and media are of course riding the hype on this "green" gravy train. Their marketing gurus have alerted them about this fast growing "greeny" market and many organisations are using "green" buzz words in their effort to attract this new market.

    The responsibility lies with us business leaders and consumers to be more aware of what we support and how we do business. Educating ourselves and looking beyond the media hype is one way of holding up to that responsibility.

    From what I see, these "green" datacentre will have LESS of an impact on the environment. Logical right? I would be a potential customer for a hosting company that hosts their servers in such a datacentre. I know there are many more potential customers like myself. No denying that this a business opportunity and being a happy KH customer, I would be happy to see KH benefit from this opportunity.
  16. khiltd

    khiltd New Member

    To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. "Virtualization" is about as ridiculously beaten a buzzword as "organic" and your overzealous proselytization is doubly meaningless on a forum which is pretty much dedicated to VPS hosting. You clearly have an agenda, but since it's impossible to convert VPS customers to these virtualization technologies they're already using, it's much more likely that yours is simply to look smart on the internet. Unfortunately, regurgitating half-chewed portions of things you vaguely recall other, smarter people saying at some point in the past while omitting all of the factual data tends to have the opposite effect.

    And "heat exhaust?" If heat is bad for the environment then why would it have evolved homeothermic organisms? What temperature do you think your body would be right now if every cell in it weren't burning up ATP like mad? There's a little thing out there called the first law of thermodynamics that might be worth looking into. Also, the sun; pretty hot last time I checked, and pretty responsible for the existence of life on this planet in general. Sure, there's a few bacteria that metabolize volcano spew at the bottom of the ocean, but the sun's still the reason those volcanos are there, and they're usually kinda warm, too.

    I think the problem here is a failure to understand the difference between efficiency and emissions. Photovoltaic cells are not efficient (roughly 12% conversion on a good day for all the money, effort and plastic that goes into their construction and deployment), they just don't continually burn through barrels of refined petroleum and spew out toxic byproducts which cannot be removed or contained by present technology on quite the same scale as a generator. That's what makes them "green." If you truly believe this is folly, by all means, lock yourself in a windowless garage with a running generator and wait to see what happens to your hemoglobin when there's nothing around that eats that stuff.

    As for topsoil, there are excellent products out there which are made from worm castings rather than cow waste. In addition to being better for plants, the worms emit substantially less methane, require no clear-cutting of forests, and consume only organic (that would be the textbook definition of the word; look it up if you've forgotten your high school chemistry) garbage that would have otherwise become landfill. It's more expensive because it's not yet mass produced by Wal-Mart, but you can make your own in a bucket for free if you do a lot of gardening. Just don't sell any of it because making a profit is apparently an egregious sin for virtual Commies everywhere.
  17. Maish

    Maish New Member

    Dear khiltd..

    I don't know who you are, and neither do you know me. So please do not assume that I am trying to make an impression here or as you put it...

    I don't need to impress anyone. I have my own feelings, ideas and thoughts. I know what I know, and do not need to prove it to anyone. And downplaying my words, will not change them.

    Wow, I did not know I had an agenda and am certainly not trying to convert anyone to anything, (unless you all want to become Jewish :D) so I don't know how you saw that because it is a new one to me....

    And about this one...

    Well if you think that I vaguely remember what I had to say in a lecture that I gave about less than a week ago to 300 of my colleagues on this subject well then you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

    Hosting is a hobby of mine, not my bread and butter.

    Managing a Global company's (with a yearly revenue of over $300 million last year) network with over 700 servers (yes I confess more than 60% are windows OS), almost 10,000 workstations and 5000 users over 5 different continents, with an array of 20 ESX servers spread over the world, hosting more than 200 Virtual Machines ...

    ....That is my work.

    So please don't make the mistake of making assumptions that are not based on anything remotely factual besides what you "think" you know about me.

    Virtualization is not the solution for everything. I never said it was.

    And if I was not clear, I will try again.

    Many people are jumping on the "green" bandwagon. We see it in the supermarket, we see it in government, we see it also in our line of business as well.

    Some of the above do it for personal gain, fame, wealth. Some do it because they care. Some do it because they just want to go with the flow. There are more than enough reasons.

    Not all of it is right though. People need to be sensible. If they are willing to go to a datacenter only and just because they have solar panels giving power to their servers instead of regular electricity, then I am sorry but you need your head examined. Not everything can be virtualized, I never said that. And no I do not use it as a buzzword, I use it in my line of work, have been for that last 5 years, day in and day out.

    Back to the topic.

    onelove said in the first post

    I do give him/her the credit that they would pay more because they know that Knownhost has reliable service, one of the best I have seen around for over the last 5 years, and if along the way they can contribute to the community and the planet - well then why the heck not.. go for it.

    Sorry that does not do it for me.

    Really dumb, that I wasted so much time on writing this post so I will end it here.

    Let us agree to disagree, and in the future, don't make assumptions about people. Usually it does not do you any good.

    Have a good night all.
  18. LeMarque

    LeMarque Member


    I'm somehow reminded of the movie "Dr. Strangelove"
  19. magic

    magic New Member

    My comment about the heat exhaust is because of the computer equipment, not the humans. Unless you want servers burning out on their own heat, you'll need to use energy to keep them cool.

    But if you all want to have a pedantic spectacle then by all means go right ahead.
  20. tristanperry

    tristanperry New Member

    Whilst "green" hosting may be a good idea, I do personally see it as a fashion thing. Just like "Make poverty history" or "Fair Trade"

    Obviously this isn't a thread to discuss politics, however I cannot help but think that "green" hosting is just another way for companies to earn money. It's still fundamentally just targeting a niche market, a way to earn money from "green" people.

    I greatly doubt that these "green" hosts are doing it for the good of the environment. It's, IMHO, more to make money.

    Although it is working, so good on them.

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